There is a question that I’ve had to answer more than I’d like to in my professional life. A silly question that has hounded me for years. This subject seems to always come up when I meet new people. I say, “I’m a 3D Creative Lead”. They quickly reply, “So you must use Maya then?” I reply, “no, actually I use 3ds Max”. This is usually followed by a look of puzzlement, then followed up with a cautious, “Why?”
What better place to finally answer that question than in the sanctuary of my own cozy blog. Perhaps you too have used Maya and fallen out of love. Maybe I’m not alone. I bet there are quite a few artists out there who feel slightly embarrassed by chosing NOT to use Maya. This one is for you.
My affair with Maya started WAY back at 1.0. I was beta testing it while working in Alias Power Animator. Power Animator was the very first 3D software I used professionally. I loved it. It had everything I thought I would need. That is, until I met Maya for the first time.
Maya had me with those cool marking menus and those fancy dynamics. I remember thinking that all those cowboy demos looked lame as hell, but what are you gonna do? No software company has good looking demos. Quickly Maya took over the entertainment market with it’s open architecture and the introduction of mel. This led to endless movies being made with it. Which in turn, led every eager student to demand his school use the same software that made Jurassic Park. The kool-aid was pored and everyone drank. Including me. I thought Maya was the ONLY tool for 3d professionals. I also thought crashing renders, blotchy shadows, and buggy display issues, were just part of the game.
I cant tell you how many times I would kick off an important render on Friday, only to come in Monday to a failed render. Or a popping shadow or anti-aliasing artifacts. I spent more time troubleshooting (and losing hair) than actually animating. All the while, I thought this was normal.
Five or six versions of Maya later (and me much grayer), my buddy Adam Holmes took a job with Discreet (not Autodesk yet). He was an demo artist for 3DS Max and really wanted me to give it a shot. I was a bit snobby at first, afraid of what others would think, but decided to accept his free demo. I installed it and immediately thought, “man, this UI sucks.” No marking menus? My clicking finger got sore from hunting around for every little button and modifier. But damn if the scanline renderer wasn’t blazing fast. I decided to give it a shot on a 3D title for a Footlocker spot I was working on. A simple piece of 3d type that was all chromed out and supposed to fly around our actor in a super slo-mo cornball way. This sort of thing would have been easy enough to do in Maya, but I bet I would have run into at least a couple of issues trying to deform the type around the actor.
By my estimations, I finished that Footlocker title using 3DS Max in about half the time it would have taken me in Maya. But what made me a believer wasnt how fast I turned it around, it was how fast I was able to turn around client changes. The client decided to change a few things at the last minute that would have meant almost starting over in Maya, but Max simply meant tweaking my modifier stack. And right then I saw the power of a non-linear approach. I never drank that kool-aid again.
Later I discovered the power of rendering to elements and passes (something very foriegn to Maya users at the time). The quality of my work escalated because I now understood how to use this funcitonality and how to make my stuff look even better through comping. I could never go back to Maya’s linear approach now. It is only recently that Maya has understood the power of 3d comping, something I was doing with Max 5 years ago. Later, when I discovered Brazil and V-ray, my relationship with Max was set in stone. This app makes amazing looking pictures.
I’m a sucker for bullet point lists, so here is a breakdown of why I dont use Maya…anymore. This list is not in any particular order and only includes the reasons that popped into my mind at the time of writing.
1. Too permanent - Manipulating history sucks. I like to work in a program that allows easy changes (I work in advertising after all). Maya makes that very difficult. I like being able to work a volume select with a falloff into some deformer to do something cool and new. It’s called creativity. Or some call it the modifier stack.
2. The deformers don’t cut it - There are not enough deformers and they are difficult to manipulate and turn on thier ear for artistic means. Ever try to extrude a ribbon along a path for some mo-graphy element? It’s a pain in the ass! Lattice based spline deformers? Pah-leeze!
3. Redundant menus - Ever look around Maya and wonder, “what the hell is with all these menu tabs that I never touch? And why are so many of them called the same cryptic thing?” I’ve spent many a minute traversing these rabbit holes.
4. Sorry MEL, I’m not a programmer - I have no interest in spending weeks writing tools to make up for Maya’s deficiencys. I also don’t have a budget for a fulltime TD. If I hop over to Highend3d and flounder through thier search engine, I usually find some out of date script that was made for Maya 2.0.
6. The Maya community is selfish - Don’t get all crazy defensive on me here. I’ve posted to both Maya and Max forums. In my experience, I’ve found that I get double the responses from the Max community than the Mayans. ScriptSpot.com blows away Highend3d in terms of sheer amount of free scripts/plugins. Actually if it weren’t for scriptspot.com, I’m not sure how I would finish half the jobs I’ve done.
7. Not enough plugins - I’m sorry but just because Maya has built in fluids, doesn’t mean they are good. I love what Duncan does for the world of 3D but his numerous examples never seem to apply to the jobs I work on. Max has far more third party developers which means more choices for the artist. Plus, Max has easier ways for artists to do technically difficult things faster.
8. No V-Ray.
9. Particles pain - I know Maya’s particles have been called “powerful”, but if your not a scripting genius they are extremely limiting. I have yet to see a student reel using them to any effectiveness. I myself never fully understood how to utilize particles until using Pflow in Max. Now, we solve problems with Pflow on almost every job.
10. No noise - I still can’t believe there is no noise deformer or noise animation tool. I use noise all the time in both modeling and animation. Sure you could write a cryptic noise expression in Maya but that is both cumbersome and limiting if your not a math wiz.
I could go on (no free Mental Ray render-node licenses), but ten is a good number to end on. I don’t want you all to think I’m some kind of software snob. I’m not. I actually love where Maya has gone with it’s addition of framebuffered elements. I also think it’s render pass system is now one of the best. I even used it recently in a creative fashion. So from time to time I check in on my old friend Maya to see how she’s doing and whether or not I could come back to her. If/When they ever decide to move to a more non-linear workflow (ICE or Modifier Stack), I probably would go back. If for nothing else than to be able to answer that annoying question with a simple, YES.
This entry was written by , posted on March 23, 2009 at 2:57 pm, filed under Uncategorized, news. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
Hi. Nice post.
I am a strong believer that what’s important in a 3D software, is that you feel comfortable using it. If you fight with the UI, or always wonder where a specific function you need is, your work is just not getting done on time and will never look the way you want it. I also believe that, sometimes, you just have to use more then one software to get the job done. I personally always liked Softimage. In my opinion it is still the best software for animation and the best UI out there. But if I need to use Maya or 3DS Max to do something that they are better at then Softimage, I will.
Nice one. I still need to remember to head to Max first more often, I’ve still been opening it in a pavlovian way more often than not, and the non-destructiveness of Max is certainly nice to work with.
I’d love to see a similar post on your thoughts on C4D v Max, in the wake of C4D’s increasing mograph market share.
erm… opening Maya in a pavlovian manner, that is.
Great post; I appreciate your insight into the why and why not of Maya!
Well said.
“My clicking finger got sore” — haha — I spit coffee on my keyboard when I read that — still my number one complaint in max
click, click, click… 
I have similar experiences with houdini now. Though there are tons of things I like about Maya there are at least as many which I don’t like.
I gave beginner maya courses last year and there I realized how complicated and stiff maya is if you simply want to do something. It’s like the Avid of 3D ^_^
Though it can be powerfull when doing not out of the box stuff. But other application can do this to. Even Blender. And if you name houdini Maya looks like a childs toy.
Good stuff chad. I like hearing someone stand up to those Maya artists! Besides learning on it, I always say that the non-destructive nature of the stack is extremely powerful and useful when making changes.
Great post, watching the first time a 3dsmax user opens maya is one of the funniest things i’ve seen.
It’s good to hear it from a Maya user!
Couldn’t agree more!!
i don’t hardly ever use max or know as much about it because
1) there are far more resources to learn maya (as far as i’ve found looking for both)
2) i don’t have to get on windows to use maya
they’re both good pieces of software though
you’d probably be interested in this
http://www.vray.com/vray_for_maya/
Brian,
That is true that gnomon (sp?) has always pushed Maya, but truthfully I never used dvd training when I was learning Max. I usually just called my buddy Adam or looked online for free tutorials.
As for the mac vs pc thing, that’s a whole other post. Although I never understood people using Maya on a mac when there are limits to what scripts and mental ray shaders will work. Not to mention that building a Mac render farm is so costly.
And vray for maya. I have beta tested it. It’s promising but still in beta.
Thanks
Thanks for saying that about 3ds Max. I know it’s lame, but I’ve always felt inadequate because I never worked in Maya. I tried learning it last month…I stopped. I am interested in C4d though. And a possible Max/Mac affair!
da best. Keep it going! Thank you
Max is great I love it, but I also wanna learn Maya. Guess to each his own. I’m actually learning a lot of c4d these days, which si an amazing package. The one thing that upsets me about Max though si the fact Renderman simply does not work with it. I know a few plugins have been tried to get it barely working but not enough to be productive. Anyone got a clue why one of the industries biggest render packages isn’t compatible yet in MAX?
I’m a firm believer in learning as many apps as you can. Knowledge is power. As for renderman in Max, I don’t know anyone that uses it. I’ve always gotten what I need from V-Ray or Mental Ray. Thanks, -chad
Came here to read your linear workflow comments but had to check out your Maya critique. I worked exclusively with C4D in it’s earlier version, but trained in Studio Max for work purposes. I worked with Max from v6 to date. And i recognized the great improvements and all the positive things you say about it
During a down cycle, I was given a chance to double my vacation pay if I would train…and took the cheque and spent in on a Maya seat and a bucket of train’n. My impression was vastly different, this is home now. I wish somehow I would never have seen C4D and Max and started only with Maya. It is hard software to master, but once you gain proficiency in my experience it is second to none. I realize all the idiosyncrasies of the basic workflow…however it was not meant to be used this way unfortunately. Your comments about the history node are incorrect. I can script for each iteration of any node in history … how is this linear? It is the opposite of linear. In Maya you must script. I have found Mel to be the easiest scripting language I have used…including python. Once one understands the basics of mel….this is essential in Maya, most applications that in other programs call for dynamics can be done through relationships. As for math…the program itself will do the math for you by using the tools to describe the geometric relationships and then cutting the result from the script editor. The script editor and interface are geometric and psychical properties calculator. With motionbuilder, nothing matches Maya for animation. FBX will work with other programs. But it’s combination with Maya’s own tools is two shots to the head. Dynamics were always the best available, some say not, but only because they just weren’t easy enough to use..for power they are second to none. I know Max well enough to think I know why you prefer it to Maya. I think you are being a vindictive ex lover. Maya doesn’t answer your requirements for commitment and is too high maintenance. Fair enough…so you settled for the ungainly step sister. But you shouldn’t dis the Goddess of Illusions in public like you have here man. It’s not only ungentlemanly, it’s also bad karma.
As for Max being a better suite. Well you should know then if you have used Maya to any extent. Max is good and you prefer it. I liked using Max until I gained a deeper understanding of Maya.. Anyway I suppose it’s foolish of me to comment on preferences. My preference is that I wish i had started with Maya from the start. It turned out my career has been to work in 3D animation and I shall continue in this path and Maya has everything I want at the highest possible level.
Grimoire,
I’m glad you found a 3D package that suits you. It sounds like you and Maya are perfect together. I truly believe that Maya is a strong package if you are proficient in programing. That way you can code your way around it’s many deficiencies (non-intuitive particle system, weak non-linear deformers, etc). I would probably use it myself if I were programming inclined. I am not. I studied film/traditional animation in school. I can hack a bit of maxscript but could never depend on this skill for much. “In Maya you must script”, you said. That sucks. That’s why artists struggle with this program. So it sounds like you’ve made the right decision for you.
I disagree with what you said about nothing matches Maya for animation. Have you played with CAT? Have you ever added secondary noise to an animation in Maya and then do the same in Max? Unless you know the quadratic formula of random noise quantification blah blah blah, adding noise to animation in Maya stinks. In Max, you simply add a list controller and a noise controller and you have a nice little UI that actually SHOWS you what your noise is doing.
I’m sorry but Pflow kicks Maya particles ass. Just ask any artist trying to use animated instanced particles in Maya without a TD on hand. Its a pain in the ass.
You might say, “Well in Maya you have to work a bit harder for those things, but it can get there”. Well that’s great but I really don’t have the time, I like to make art and I like to make my deadlines.
I honestly am happy that you dig Maya though. Thank you also for visiting the site and commenting. Please come back often!
-chad
Chad: thanks for your reply. I am sorry if I was defensive in my post…I really feel judging by your remarks that you have a misunderstanding resulting from problems you did not resolve in Maya. Adding noise to anything, including animation in Maya is as easy as drag and drop and configure. Moreover you can use almost anything to control or influence your noise or the exact properties you wish to influence. It is as simple as connecting nodes to properties. You do not need to do Quadratic formulas to accomplish anything in Maya….a basic example here.
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Courses/cs-838-1999/Students/fruit/final_writeup.html
This is the basic workflow for many influences in Maya. Connecting nodes in the hypergraph. The same for nonlinear deformers. You do not have to be a programmer to be a poweruser in Maya. I also come from a film background (I am in my 40’s). It is just that a particularity of Maya is the ease of learning and using mel, and using the program itself as a calculator to solve your problems without doing any math.This is why many who use 3D software in production consider Maya to be the most flexible and powerful program available.
I am not a particles expert, but your comments that Pflow kicks nucleas’s ass reflects that you are not being serious about this, as well as your comment on needing a TD on hand. Or comparing CAT to Maya’s animation toolset.
“Well in Maya you have to work a bit harder for those things, but it can get there”. I would not say this. No professional I have met would say this. The idea strikes me as a contradiction to the experience to the majority of people who are proficient in Max and Maya. This is your blog and you can say it if you like. I will keep it in mind. Please at least give some thought to the fact that many people who work in production choose Maya over other suites, not because they are delusional or ignorant that Maya requires more work than others like Max, or requires programming skills, it does not, neither is mel scripting programming…. Maya is chosen because it has proven to be the 3D software you can meet deadlines with the highest quality work.
“Well in Maya you have to work a bit harder for those things, but it can get there”. I would not say this. No professional I have met would say this. The idea strikes me as a contradiction to the experience to the majority of people who are proficient in Max and Maya.
Well let me be the second Professional you’ve heard to say otherwise. I am a professional freelancer who uses both Maya and Max. I go between the two half and half, but much prefer Max. I’ll use Maya only on jobs that require me working with a team of artist that also use Maya. The amount of these artist I work with that actually know how to script is maybe 1/3rd of Maya users I know. The 1/3rd that does script would say that scripting is a necessary evil. They enjoy the power, but will often have to struggle through writing a script to correct a problem when an issue occurs.
Secondly, Maya is the “chosen” package because 3D grew out of the film industry and the majority of schools teach it. Maya is an elite program for the film industry. I don’t work in the film industry though, despite my training for it in college at SCAD where I learned Maya, Mel, Python, and Houdini. I’m a designer and had no desire to work on Chipmunks 1 & 2 like the majority of my former classmates have.
If you talked to my classmates now, they would say they love what they’re doing and Maya is prefect for them. I respect that. They do great work. As a designer in the broadcast field, I’ve found Max works best for me. Thats why we have options. Saying one program is better than the other, or that its an ungainly step sister compared to your “Goddess of Illusions” makes you sound incredibly egotistical and immature.
Grimoire, I think you’re missing the point. You may have mastered Maya by learning Mel and scripting your way through all of Maya’s walls but that’s exactly the problem. I’d rather spend my time making stuff look cool vs writing code.
You’re the only person who I’ve heard of that has switched from Max to Maya, I think people are generally brainwashed into thinking Maya is the best 3D app because thats what they’re taught in school. Since its taught in schools many studio’s choose it as their primary 3D app because they figure the freelancer pool will be larger(which is probably true). I know this from experience. But its a matter of quality vs quantity. The fact is you need less Max Artists to finish a job.
- “Maya is chosen because it has proven to be the 3D software you can meet deadlines with the highest quality work.”
I know lots of producers working in the Motion Graphics/Broadcast industry which will tell you otherwise. Good quality sure, meeting deadlines… not so much.
Gaslamp Killer: The purpose of my comments concerned misconceptions about Maya made by blog host Smashley. That I rate Maya highly is my personal opinion, one that I do not make a habit of bringing up until someone lists an imaginary fault in Maya that underlies a fabricated assessment of the low quality of the tools in Maya. Often faults that have simple answers….that should lead an honest person to re=evaluate how they assess problems with software in general.
If that is egotistical and immature then I am to blame.
Henry Potter:
The pool of 3D Studio users is vastly larger than the pool of Maya users. Graduates of 3D schools are still water carriers and temps and have close to zero influence as the bulk of most DV professional studios is made up of film, theatre and process technicians, classically trained animators, 2D artists and Fx techs who translate their skills.
Small studio’s that job and contract that I know of, most of the founders and core staff are self trained, or who’s training was in another segment of the industry.
75 to 85% started learning 3D with 3DStudio max. The same or more, would have stayed with max had in been up to production standards, such as myself.
Well I wouldn’t mind jumping in on this topic. Very interesting read really. Maya is slow for any small fast moving production period. Don’t believe the hype. Why do you think it thrives in film, long pipeline and TOOL Developers.
I started out my career in CG using Maya and thought is was the best tool ever. However I always wondered why XSI had better looking renders. Then it occurred “mental ray” and now guess what Maya has mental ray built in. After several fast moving productions I found Maya to be slow to get something procedural accomplished quickly. So someone suggested I take a look at 3dsmax because it had something called a modifier stack. Ever since then its been a great match.
3dsmax is a parametric tool and has way more drag n drop production proven quality. You don’t have to hardware render particles. You don’t have to guess with lighting attenuation, you can adjust them in the viewports. Ncloth & Nparticles are hype. Sure I can see some quick plane blowing around in the viewport but try setting up a character or an FX shot with it. Breaks down pretty fast. Anyone use “Shave n Haircut”? You know what weta used on King Kong. Its built into 3dsmax directly. Did they use Maya fluids on Titanic?
Just look at some of the last updates to Maya. They started implementing tools from 3dsmax! Soft selection, adding a bone after you made a bone chain, point caching, backburner, relax UVs, preserve UVs, camera-based selection culling, normal mapping, soft selection COLOR, paint select. I’m sure there is more but that’s what I could think of at the moment.
Max has been a far better tool for an off the shelve product. Another point is that plugins are easily written for this off the shelve product. Render engines like Brazil, Vray, & maxwell for that matter have been written for max because it can be done. Maya has never really had much luck with people developing plugins because its such a hassle.
Take a look at FumeFX. That is the best smoke & fire plugin ever written. It easily beats in house development of such plugins to Maya.
Maya’s UI is so outdated and workflow is old school. Anyone who has been using Maya for years has been asking for a fresh update. Mel script executes slower than maxscript and its been proven in production. This is probably why people have migrated to python as another solution not to mention its not app specific.
There maybe lots of resources out there for Maya or crappy tutorials for Maya but that doesn’t mean I should drop 3dsmax for it. How many times can I see another tutorial about creating bones in Maya.
Maya = Don’t believe the Hype
maya = drinking the koolaid